Eureka !!! :D Soldier & Battle Stress are coming tother

This forum is setup to talk about all the rules found in Three Plains’ Rulebook. So here new rules can be suggested, current rules can be debated by Epic Members and Epic Members or Me can help new players of Three Plains get to grip with its rules.
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Dave
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Eureka !!! :D Soldier & Battle Stress are coming tother

Post by Dave » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:31 am

Eureka !!! :D

For a long time I have a problem with the 'Soldiering' element of Three Plains. The problem was, we always have to refer to the piece's stats in their whenever we had to take a soldiering test to figure it out. This is inspite of simplifying the soldiering rules many times now in the new rules, but it still slows the game down and really just interrupts its game flow.

So my big idea is to knock soldiering and battle stress together. In the new battle stress system, you use dice as counters and both players roll off against each other. This works really well, and is much better than the old TPV2 system of just roll a two dice on your own. However, in the new system for it to work, all pieces have a basic soldering of 3 dice. So my idea is to replace that basic three dice with the soldiering value of the piece instead.

This would make the soldiering stat far more important, and therefore far easier to remember. Also the soldiering check could then be worked out quickly, doing it on the board and would be more relative to the situation that piece was in. But the most important thing is that it would all be done within ONE system instead of two!

What's more, in doing this it cuts a lot of rules out too, like 'Brevier' and 'Cowardly' for instance, because it would be all represented within the piece's soldier stat now.

Lastly, all races would have to gain a general 'Disorder & Incompetence' rating, which would be for the entire race, not just one piece, as this would be much easier to remember. This new army stat would be what soldiering tests would be rolled against to pass or fail a check.

Well that's it for now, please let me know what you think :)
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Re: Eureka !!! :D Soldier & Battle Stress are coming tother

Post by TristanSykes1994 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:32 pm

Sounds good dave, would it be possible to get a few worked examples to clarify it? Or is it still in development?
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Re: Eureka !!! :D Soldier & Battle Stress are coming tother

Post by Dave » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:32 pm

No probs mate :)

Ok, take a Garrison Master in a unit of infantry. Instead of getting the normal 3 basic morale dice, they would the highest soldiering in the unit, which would be the Garrison Master's. He would have a soldering 5. So, he and the rest of his unit would get 5 moral dice. However, the unit would no longer count the +1 morale die for a having a character in a unit.

This way, would be faster and make more sense too, as the better or braver the leader, the more morale or soldiering dice they would have. Also, this would get rid of the attributes of Bravery and Cowardly too, as it would be now built into pieces' soldiering rating instead. So a Hag could have a soldiering 1 or 2.

These new rules would make soldiering a very important stat and, therefore make it much easier to remember too, as it would be used all the time.

By the way, I'm thinking of calling morale dice, soldiering dice instead now...

hope that clears it up for you mate :)
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Re: Eureka !!! :D Soldier & Battle Stress are coming tother

Post by thebiggestjimbo » Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:09 am

Hi Guys,

Just found out about this site, and have been getting into playing some small skirmishes. Its really impressive what you've done!

Regarding the Battle stress (Which is a great idea BTW) with battle stress accumulating with each model being killed, this doesn't affect smaller and larger units equally. 5 soldiers dying in a unit of 40 wouldn't be noticed by the remaining soldiers as much as say the same unit of 10 soldiers. Wouldn't it be more realistic basing the battle stress accumulation in this instance on percentage kills?

My idea, which was a bit simplistic, is this:

Each unit gets a soldiering value which denotes how many dice they get to roll in Battle stress. They then accumulate battle stress like this:

+3 for each 25% Soldiers killed, each time flanked, fear, etc.

Then, say a unit has a soldiering value of 2, they would roll 2 dice and try and stay under that battle stress tally. Characters and generals would have a higher soldiering value usually and would allow them to use their value, say 3, and would get 3 dice.

I based this on an average unit losing 25% of their strength would have a 25% chance of routing.

For example, a unit with a soldiering value of 2, that lost 25% of its strength would get +3 to their battle stress So that's a roll of 4+ on 2D6. So a unit that loses 50% of their strength and has been flanked would be pretty stressed i reckon, so would have to get a 10+ on 2D6 to pass. But they have a general with a soldiering value of 3 nearby, so they would get to use that soldiering value and would have to roll 10+ on 3D6.

Like i said, its pretty simple. What do you guys reckon?

J

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Re: Eureka !!! :D Soldier & Battle Stress are coming tother

Post by TristanSykes1994 » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:52 am

Hey jimbo, glad to know you enjoy the game. Given what you have said, I can see where you come from, but smaller units against larger units are, realistically, more likely to break under even stats. And that's how it should work. However, the difference comes in that smaller units are usually stronger individuals than those of a larger units or have small bonuses or rules to even it out. When version 3 comes out, the rules for battle stress will be much easier and fairer.
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Re: Eureka !!! :D Soldier & Battle Stress are coming tother

Post by Dave » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:28 am

First off, Welcome to Epic's forum, and thank you for trying out and liking are game :)

As your idea is based on the old system of V2, which has changed quite a bit now, I will send you the most up today lists and rules, so it will give you a better footing on the battle stress system and other new things in the game.

To be honest with you I like your suggestion, as its something we never thought of before. It raises some interesting questions about battle stress and how groups of individuals would suffer from it during a battle. Because, if you did lose half of your unit, would you suffer that loss all the time... or would you be able to recover from it and move on... or would it always be there in the back of your mind in a lesser form... So this to me is more a question of psychology, which I will have to go and think about... :?

In game play terms, presuming that when you lose 25% or more of your unit, they would go on to suffer that for the rest of the game in each battle stress phase, that would mean a lot of checks building up each turn over time. So, keeping tabs on losses could be an issue. It would be easy to do in small games, but we game test with 3000pts or more, so we may have to use markers for this, which really wouldn't be too big an issue. But for me, it would be the constant checks that would need to be taken each turn, which will greatly increase a pieces chances of fleeing 'eventually', even if you only tuck 25% losses. For instance, a unit which got blasted early on in the game with magic would have to take a 'Break Check' as it is called now, twice a turn, (as both sides share battle stress phases), which could eventually make it flee, even if the unit was doing well in the later stages of the game. So no matter how unlikely a piece will break in battle, if it takes enough checks, it will in the end, and that would be unfair.

However, if a unit with less than 25% of it forces left, that is a pretty grim fact for those warriors to ignore and would have a constant affect on their leadership. So I can see me adding something in there to fill that little hole you have pointed out, so thanks J :) I would suggest that pieces with less than 25% of its life points left would have to double up their battle stress dice if they have to take a break check? All this would become clear to you after you read the new rules :) Also this would apply to monsters, war machines and characters near death, which would work very well :)

Also, after reading the new rules, you will find new gaming mechanics which deal with battle stress and unit sizes.

Cheer J for your great input into the game :)
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Re: Eureka !!! :D Soldier & Battle Stress are coming tother

Post by thebiggestjimbo » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:05 am

Thanks for that Dave!

Just reading through the new rules now, they look pretty cool, ill have to give them a go.

I also like that in the dice chart there is an amusing typo where Breasts are on the same level as war machines. (Fair enough though) ;D

Another thought i had was that maybe certain units could take soldiering checks to form formations such as wedges for cavalry, spear walls, testudo, squares, shield walls, etc. which would give certain bonuses at a cost of say maneuverability. This could be shown on the board with a counter easily enough.

I also had another idea about players turns and counter charging. (Which you mentioned somewhere you would like to add at some point) Maybe have players take it in turns to move individual units. If a unit declares a charge, the other player has the choice to respond as their turn with a counter charge, or fall back or even a formation change. Makes sense that a unit wouldn't just stand there and take a charge of cavalry, maybe they would form a spear wall or something. To respond they would have to take a soldiering check otherwise they would have to just take the charge, or maybe lose half their movement, and wouldn't get to meet the enemy halfway. Also wouldnt a charging unit get certain bonuses based on its momentum? So heavy cavalry would get a big charge bonus but that charge bonus could be cancelled out or given to the enemy if charging a unit in a spear wall formation...

ANYWHO!

Thanks for all this! Its great!

J

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Re: Eureka !!! :D Soldier & Battle Stress are coming tother

Post by Dave » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:45 am

thebiggestjimbo wrote:Thanks for that Dave!
Anytime :)
thebiggestjimbo wrote:Just reading through the new rules now, they look pretty cool, ill have to give them a go.
Love to hear how that goes, when it happens :)
thebiggestjimbo wrote:I also like that in the dice chart there is an amusing typo where Breasts are on the same level as war machines. (Fair enough though) ;D
:shock: :? lol yes I'm Dyslexic, but my mistakes ALWAYS seem to be on the funny side at least, but perhaps that just my mind... :)
thebiggestjimbo wrote:Another thought i had was that maybe certain units could take soldiering checks to form formations such as wedges for cavalry, spear walls, testudo, squares, shield walls, etc. which would give certain bonuses at a cost of say maneuverability. This could be shown on the board with a counter easily enough.
Some on those formations are covered in the 'Movement' chapter, but check out 'Unit Pieces' on page 46, where a lot of unit formations have been added. Testudos, Shield Walls will be in the game, but it will be a more specialist feature of certain armies, like the Dwarfs for instance. However, as you will see the rules are never set in stone and may change to include them more broadly yet. with regards to spear or pike walls, I feel units armed with those weapons would automatically make the best use of them in combat, without rolling to see if they would or not.
thebiggestjimbo wrote:I also had another idea about players turns and counter charging. (Which you mentioned somewhere you would like to add at some point) Maybe have players take it in turns to move individual units. If a unit declares a charge, the other player has the choice to respond as their turn with a counter charge, or fall back or even a formation change. Makes sense that a unit wouldn't just stand there and take a charge of cavalry, maybe they would form a spear wall or something. To respond they would have to take a soldiering check otherwise they would have to just take the charge, or maybe lose half their movement, and wouldn't get to meet the enemy halfway. Also wouldnt a charging unit get certain bonuses based on its momentum? So heavy cavalry would get a big charge bonus but that charge bonus could be cancelled out or given to the enemy if charging a unit in a spear wall formation...
Right... there a few things there :)

In the new rules, then you charge now you keep on changing. So now when you charge a charging piece, your really counter charged them. Also if the enemy changes you and you cannot charge back, as they do it all in their turn, then you wouldn't have time respond. For instance, an Orc player needs to change early to get their Frenzy, which would give their opponent time or one turn to counter charge them back.

However... :shock: I have found that I have missed out these news rules in all the cutting and pasting in the new version. V3.2 died lol and so I had to start again and manually transfer it all over, and I must have missed those bits out.

"Charging a Charging Enemy Piece
When a charging piece is charged itself, both pieces count as being charge by each other at the same time. Therefore, all bonuses for charging into combat apply to both sides, such as combat modifiers for charging in with 'Spears' and 'Lances', which are discussed on page **."


"Counter Charges (DC)
There are a few reasons why bands of warriors will counter charge an enemy. Some War Lords will use this manoeuvre to their advantage, tempting their foes out of their army’s front line, so that they become an easier target to pick off. The other less disciplined and more predictable warriors, who won’t just stand by and watch their comrades have all the fun, will always break from their ranks and overzealously dive into combat. These fools never realise they are falling into the enemy general’s trap, doing just what he wants them to do, breaking them off from their main lines, and making them easy targets to pick off.

Provided a piece does not move or shoot during its last turn, it is eligible to make a 'Counter Charge' at an enemy, which has charged a nearby friendly piece. This manoeuvre is preformed at the end of the enemy’s movement phase, after they have moved all their pieces.

Before making a counter charge, the piece must have its charge target within its awareness ranges, and it needs to take and pass a deviancy check first. If any of these criteria cannot be met, no counter charge can be made.

Pieces that are charged themselves, cannot counter charge.

Barring infantry, an enemy piece that charges 10 inches and more into combat, cannot be counter charged, as that combat could be over in moments.

Other than the rules above, a counter charging piece follows all the normal rules for making a charge upon an enemy.

If possible, pieces which suffer from 'Hatred' and 'Frenzy', as described on page ** must always counter charge enemy pieces, and will never take a soldiering check to perform this manoeuvre."


Also keep in mind the worse thing a infantry unit can against cavalry charge is move or change their formation, as that would give them very flimsy ranks against steamrolling cavalry charger. However, Spears and Pikes get bonus against cavalry and would automatically form up to fight them, and there is the ‘Soft Infantry’ for cavalry and chariots on page 37 which gives them an advantage against infantry in combat.

And I think that just about answers all of your questions, but as I'm always working on the rules and updating them, I will make you an 'Inner Circle of Epic' member so it will be easier for you to get the updates, which I post out ever Friday or Saturday.

Thanks for all your feedback J, and as you can see I'm far from perfect :? , so this all helps make Three Plains into a better for everyone :)
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Re: Eureka !!! :D Soldier & Battle Stress are coming tother

Post by thebiggestjimbo » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:44 am

Thanks for answering all my questions so quickly!

Looking forward to taking a look at all the changes youve made and trying them out!

J

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Re: Eureka !!! :D Soldier & Battle Stress are coming tother

Post by Dave » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:30 am

nps :)
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